返回 拔刀斋 HFsword.com

刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums
现在时间是 2020-8-15 00:39

您还没有注册登录,您可能需要注册才能发贴和回复
如果您第一次访问本论坛,请阅读论坛上方的 FAQ
 


<<  [1] [2]  >>  
作者:
主题:Shuang jian. 双剑。 上一主题 下一主题
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
Shuang jian. 双剑。

Hi everybody.

I am new to this forum, although I have been lurking around here for sometime now. I bought this shuang jian for a while ago and I hoped you could help me date it and also verify that it is a real thing. Thank you!
If you want more pictures just ask.

The blades are about 16" long, total length is 22".
They weight about 400 grams each.

大家好。

我是新来的,虽然我已经在这里呆了有一段时间。不久之前我买了这把双剑,我希望你们能帮我断代,而且核实一下它是否真的。谢谢!
如果你需要更多图片,请问我。

刀刃长16" ,总长22"。
每个重400g。

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:30 AM 最后编辑 ]

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:22
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 2.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:23
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 3.


本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:23
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 4.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:25
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 5.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:25
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 6.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:26
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 7.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:27
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 8.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:28
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic 9.

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:28
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
pic. 10

本贴包含图片附件:

点击查看全图
2003-11-11 20:29
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
z_guns
黄金长老




刀币 1522 元
发帖 497 篇
注册 2002-12-20
来自 中国
品像很好的双剑,WUDAO兄快来拿下!

Shuang Jian with good appearance.Brother Wudao,takes it down soon!

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:32 AM 最后编辑 ]

每个人都应该有一把自己的刀。
2003-11-11 20:53
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
WuDao
论坛管理员




刀币 31776 元
发帖 13236 篇
注册 2002-12-17
来自 中国 P R China
Hi Tomi,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for posting this nice shuangjian. From the pictures it is original and in good conditions. It seems of late 19 century, and made in south china. The fittings are very nice and complete which are of famouse Long Quan (dragon well) design. Rayskin also seems original.

In short, good shuang jian.


Regards

Alex

Tomi 你好,

欢迎来到咱论坛。

感谢发表这精美的双剑。从图片上看,是原装而且保存很好。这象是19世纪末的,在中国南方制造。装具很美,完整,而且是著名的龙泉设计。丝带也象是原装的。

总之,好双剑。

致意

Alex

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:41 AM 最后编辑 ]

Chinese Sword, a remarkable and unassailable symbol of ancient Chinese civilization and spirit of his people. It  reflects five most essential spirits of every Chinese man:  仁 Ren (benevolence),  义 Yi (righteousness),  礼 Li (principles),  智 Zhi (intelligence) and  信 Xin (trustworthiness).  
2003-11-11 20:56
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
唐风
青铜长老




刀币 565 元
发帖 269 篇
注册 2003-6-1
这东西动过手的,有配的

It's modified,with something matched.

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:42 AM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-11 23:26
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
Thank you alex, I am pleased to be here. I am also very thankfull for your insight.

唐风 Do you think its fake?

感谢alex,我很高兴来到这里。我也很欣赏你的眼力。

唐风 你认为这是假的吗?

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:43 AM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-12 01:49
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
龙哥
白金长老



刀币 5973 元
发帖 2135 篇
注册 2002-12-17
来自 中国北京
  剑不错。

Not bad.

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 08:44 AM 最后编辑 ]

qq:52213015
2003-11-12 08:41
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息 龙哥 的 OICQ    编辑贴子 引用回复
唐风
青铜长老




刀币 565 元
发帖 269 篇
注册 2003-6-1
真呀,只是看起来象有配的

Yes,it looks like matched.

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-12 09:45 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-12 21:07
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
劍奴
黄金长老



刀币 1546 元
发帖 771 篇
注册 2002-12-19
来自 媽媽的肚子
大家研究、研究!Let's take a trail

研究、研究!
Let's  take a close look and discussion

不同意見
It's my different view  but an interesting experience

研究、研究!
Let see.......

http://kiven0517.u6.a-gf.com/hfs ... 05412d6c52#pid23258



[ 本贴由 劍奴 于 2003-01-01 09:44 PM 最后编辑 ]

舞劍高歌...人生幾何!
2003-11-12 21:33
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
Thank you all for your comments. I am not totally sure about the fittings my self, it seems that some of the fittings are very good quality and some only mediocre quality. It allmost seems that there is two sets of fittings mixed together. On the other hand they all fit perfectly to the scabbard, even the nail holes match perfectly. I think they are old, but are they all original, that I don't know.
I think the scabbard is actually covered with snake skin.

谢谢你的指教。我自己不是很确定。这装具中有的象是很好质量,有的只是一般般。这象是混合了两套装具。另一方面,它们和鞘很吻合,甚至连钉孔也一样配得很完美。我看老,但是否原装我就不知道了。
我想鞘是本来就覆盖着蛇皮的。

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-13 07:19 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-13 05:12
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
DGQJ
初级会员




刀币 12 元
发帖 6 篇
注册 2003-11-12
Is's perfectly and original!The handles are made by horn and the scabbard is covered with shark skin.

这是完美的且是原装的!装具是牛角做的,鞘上覆盖的是鲨鱼皮。

[ 本贴由 DGQJ 于 2003-11-13 09:30 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-13 05:42
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
觅刀客
向各位学习



刀币 1882 元
发帖 917 篇
注册 2002-12-18
来自 北京
       我知道,我要一说,肯定有一批人说我眼力差、疑心重,甚至说我是哗众取宠!少说两句对我来讲没有任何损失,多说一句就会遭人白眼,何苦呢?
    可看着楼主这位喜欢中国古董刀剑的朋友,如此恳恳切切,我实在于心不忍。忍不住还是说吧。以我现在的眼里看,这剑就是新仿的。但愿我是错的,于我并没关系,无非是继续努力苦练眼里罢了。可要万一我是对的,而在此又没说出来,以后这剑便成了楼主收集古董刀剑的参照物,多少年下去,收了一批这样的东西,而浑然不知,岂不太可怜了!
    我不想标新立异,只不过怎么看就怎么说,仅供参考。

谁知林栖者,闻风坐相悦。
2003-11-13 12:50
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
老乡卜释壬
铗 斋




刀币 4962 元
发帖 777 篇
注册 2003-8-29
来自 两亩三分地
可有北京古玩城仿龙泉的照片!

Is there pic imitated Longquan in Beijing antique city?

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:05 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-13 15:10
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
龙哥
白金长老



刀币 5973 元
发帖 2135 篇
注册 2002-12-17
来自 中国北京
觅兄说仿,必有缘由,愿听高见。

Brother Mi said it's imitated.He must have his reason.I'm here waiting to listen.

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:06 PM 最后编辑 ]

qq:52213015
2003-11-13 15:21
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息 龙哥 的 OICQ    编辑贴子 引用回复
金相显微
劳模



刀币 25752 元
发帖 11693 篇
注册 2002-12-17
来自 那旮瘩
此类龙泉(白鲛皮)似乎以海外居多,国内为酸枝/玳瑁/绿鲛皮居多,为何区别很大?
有趣的是此类龙泉北方的兄弟以怀疑态度居多,可有证具!

This type of Longquan (white Jiao skin) seems to be most abroad,and Suanzhi,hawksbill,and green Jian skin are most at home.Why so different?
It's funny that this Longquan is mostly suspected by northern brothers.Is evidence available?

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:11 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-13 15:55
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
觅刀客
向各位学习



刀币 1882 元
发帖 917 篇
注册 2002-12-18
来自 北京
    主要是我看的龙泉剑,真正在龙泉生产的不多,大多实在天津、山西仿制的。在加上本来就对这路份东西不感兴趣,所以也没什么深入的研究,因此这次评断,很可能是受主观影响,谬之千里。
    当然,小弟也不敢胡说,说它新仿,总还是能说几条。
    给的这些图片,并看不清楚剑身,只有装具的图片清楚,我也只能考装具判断了。这类装具没什么特色,无非是铸出来的铜片,稍加打磨而已,新的是这样,老的也是这样。区分新老的也就看三点,铜质、包浆、铸法。铜质我就不说了,在网上说也说不清。就说后两点吧。
1)对于包浆,虽然也是各有各的看法,但新老的差比还是能分辨,请看PIC3和PIC7,地子上发紫黑的东西(假设照片不偏色)明显和自然包浆有异,我看就是常见的作旧,用酸、氧化剂等化学药品,烧粘等物理手段做的。
2)再说铸法,这把剑纹饰虚飘、模糊,装具偏厚,有些地方非常不自然,请看PIC2,龙头上那道综纹怎么来的?看PIC8,下部那块模糊怎么弄得?我据此怀疑,这些装具是翻模铸造的。
3)我们再看鱼皮,有些新玩的刀友,一看完整的鱼皮包鞘就惊为宝物,殊不知像这样大小的未经加工的鱼皮也就百十来元一张,把肉剔了,用八四液泡白再用高锰酸钾上点儿色显得有些熟旧感。用专业的工具把它磨平了图上透明漆之类的东西往鞘上一贴就算齐了,要多少有多少!辨别中国刀鞘鱼皮也是看包浆,只要看过老鱼皮的包浆,新作的根本无法入眼,曾经有幸上手太刀兄的民国大剑,才对包浆自然牢记在心,而且新老鱼皮鞘的做法也不近相同。

    就说这么多吧,限于个人水平,难免错漏,请不吝指正,谢谢。

The most Longquan Jian I've seen is not produced in Longquan,but in Tianjin,Shanxi.Moreover I'm not interested in it,and I did little research on it,so this judging,may be affected by my subject,and is wrong.
Of course,I dare not blether,but as for saying that is newly imitated,I can give some ideas.
These pics given,are not clear enough to see the body.There's only the pic of fittings which is clear,and I only judge by the fittings.This type of fittings is not characteristic,and it's the forged copper piece,with a little polish.The new one is like that,so is the old.There're three points for distinguishing new or old:copper quality,wrapped slurry,and forging way.I will not talk about copper quality,becaus it's hard to make it clear on web.Let me talk the other two points just.
1) For wrapped slurry,although there're many ideas,it still can be told apart the new and the old.Please look at pic3 and pic7,the thing on the floor of black colour (suppose no colour deflection on pic) is different from natural wrapped slurry obviously.I think it's the common imitation,which made by chemical such as acid and oxidant,and physical means such as burn and paste.
2) And then for forging way,this Jian has dark grain,and thick fittings.Please look at pic2,why is there a brown grain on dragon head?Look at pic8,how is that lower part faint?It's what I suspect.This fittings is forged by the copied mould.
3) Let's look at fishskin,a green hand will consider scabbard covered with intact fishskin as treasure.And he doesn't know such this size of fishskin without process is worth only about one hundred Yuan each.Distinguishing Chinese scabbard's fishskin depends on wrapped slurry,and as long as you've seen old fishskin wrapped slurry,the one newly made is very bad.I've once luckily posted brother Taidao's Minguo great Jian.As a result,I kept the wrapped slurry on my mind,and the work of new and old fishskin scabbard is different.

Limited to personal level,mistake can't be avoided.Please correct.Thanks!

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-15 11:46 PM 最后编辑 ]

谁知林栖者,闻风坐相悦。
2003-11-13 18:35
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
劍奴
黄金长老



刀币 1546 元
发帖 771 篇
注册 2002-12-19
来自 媽媽的肚子
高質 High Quality

大伙心裡有數......似乎以海外居多?......因高質出口也.......
Everyone know what is happening...

[ 本贴由 劍奴 于 2003-01-01 11:42 PM 最后编辑 ]

舞劍高歌...人生幾何!
2003-11-13 19:15
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
Tomi K.
高级会员




刀币 73 元
发帖 36 篇
注册 2003-11-11
Unfortunately my china is not good enough that I could understand everything that you are discussing, but I hope these pictures will help you on your debate.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/shuang/

If you need pictures on specific part of the scabbard or swords just ask.

很不幸我中文不够好,所以我不能全部明白你所讨论的,但是我希望这些图片能帮助你辩论。

http://koti.mbnet.fi/shuang/

如果你需要鞘或剑的细部图,叫我。

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:13 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-14 05:02
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
z_guns
黄金长老




刀币 1522 元
发帖 497 篇
注册 2002-12-20
来自 中国
Tomi K.兄弟:你好!
可否给出剑身的细节图片?谢谢!

Brother Tomi k.:Hello!
Could you give me the specific pic of body?Thanks!

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:14 PM 最后编辑 ]

每个人都应该有一把自己的刀。
2003-11-14 10:02
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
梁一刃
白金长老




刀币 4538 元
发帖 2223 篇
注册 2003-2-22
剑有些疑问,鱼皮看新,请上关键图片,1,鞘口部。2,后卯部。3,刃部。4,鱼皮接缝部。小觅弟绝非多疑,剑的整体看起来不太舒服。

Jian is doubtful.Fishskin is new I think.Please post the key pics : 1,scabbard mouth.2,back joint.3,blade.4,joint of fishskin.
Brother Xiaomi is not over doubtful,and the whole of Jian looks not so comfortable.

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:17 PM 最后编辑 ]
2003-11-14 14:56
查看资料 发送邮件 访问主页 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
龙哥
白金长老



刀币 5973 元
发帖 2135 篇
注册 2002-12-17
来自 中国北京
有问题?

Something the matter?

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-16 05:17 PM 最后编辑 ]

qq:52213015
2003-11-14 16:19
查看资料 发送邮件 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息 龙哥 的 OICQ    编辑贴子 引用回复
劍奴
黄金长老



刀币 1546 元
发帖 771 篇
注册 2002-12-19
来自 媽媽的肚子


  引用:
Tomi K. 于 2003-01-01 05:02 AM 写道:
Unfortunately my china is not good enough that I could understand everything that you are discussing, but I hope these pictures will help you on your debate.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/shuang/ ......

Tomi

Thanks! I've got what I want to see. As I said unforunately the color of the residue in beteen the gap of the shark skin and also in between the gap of the fittings is the same brown color seems to be the commonly used leather rubbing greases.

I have done what you did and I didn't beleive myself when some other sword friends concluded what I suggested. I was just like you not to hear the voice of my fellows until I saw some really geniuos Long Cheun for comparision.

I cannot say that it is not an old one (but less than one century) but at least it was copied from other original. Do you know what is the technique of the acient genious moulding technology. If you have seen the goldsmith to produce the golden ring then you will understandard what I said.

The goldsmith need to use lime powder to add in water to produce a sludge ball and use a rough mould to produce the rough shape of the fitting and then he will use a sharp needle to fine cut the texture and dry it. As it is soft so fine cutting is quite easy just like using a pencil. After it is dry, fine tune the texture of the halved moulds.

Before the goldsmith to melt the gold of copper, he need to  close it up and lock it to gether but leaving a hole for the puring of the melted metal. After, metal is cooled in air. The goldsmith wil break the mould but broken limesotne will leaving inside the gap or the texture.  Positive means convex  texture will produce negative concave patern. The clear the even the positive texture it is, the clear negative . The mould will only be used once. Those poor and lazy goldsmith want to re-produce the fitting, he need to use the sludge ball to get shape on to the originial fitting. You know, if the fitting is new, the reproduction will be success as sharp edge it is. Nevertheless, the goldsmith was using an antigue sword  fitting, wearing or previous residual material inside the gap of texture  much be appear  from the original one and it is what we can see from your fititngs as the gap along the IVY is not even. A genious one might be even and long along the ivy even it came from the earth buried with the dead body.  It is just one evidence . Another need you to invite me to have a dinner...but I have to go to sleep. Bye!

Add one point, noramlly the blade will be a well tampered one and antique sword blade  patern can be seen. That's mean they are propably  using the antique balde in this sword re-production  but I cannot assure if such acient technique still alive in the world. But I beleive it would be but limited to a few goldsmiths. Quiet poor they are. Such special technique nearly missing in the China.  So the value of this sword still  be valuable for collection.  For the wood of the handle, It might be an antique but it was reproduced from the members of an antique broken table or chair. Such material is easily be found in China. Some of such table of chair are over 300 years. But you can see that the edge of the handle is quite sharp. Do you think an antique sword even it was buried for years will have such sharp edge. On the other hand, texture  of files tracks can be seen. It will not appear in an genious one.

Tomi

谢谢!我得到我想看的了。象我所说的,很不幸在鲨鱼皮间隙的和在装具间隙的都是残余的棕色,这象是被普遍用在皮革摹拓品油脂上的。

我按照你所做的做了,我不能相信我自己,当其他一些刀友终止了我的建议。我象你一样,知道我看到一些真的龙泉作对比的时候才听到朋友的话。

我不能说这是老的(但少于一个世纪),但起码它是模仿其他原装的。你知道古原模制技术是什么吗?如果你有看过金匠生产金环,那么你就会明白我所说的。

金匠用石灰粉末加上水生产出一个软泥球,用一个粗模生产出装具的大概形状,然后他将会用一锋利的针来精刻条纹且使它干燥。当它软的时候精刻是一件相当容易的事情,就象用一支铅笔一样。当它干了之后,再对平分的模具的纹理作细调。

再金匠溶解铜上的金以前,他需要把它靠拢锁在一起,只留一个灌融化了的金属的孔。之后,让它自我冷却。金匠会打破模具但被打碎的石灰仍会留在间隙或条纹里面。阳是指凸出的条纹会产出凹入的图案。阳纹越清晰,阴就会越清楚。模具只会使用一次。那些差的懒的金匠想再生产装具,就会用软泥球得出原装装具的形状。如果装具是新的,再生产就会成功象锋刃一样。虽然如此,金匠是用一个古刀装具,在条纹间隙里残余的材料象是来自原装的,这就是我在你的装具上看到的沿着I常春藤的间隙不是很平滑。真的应该是平滑的且是出土的。这就是一个证据。另外一个就要你请我吃饭了……但是现在我要睡觉了。拜拜!

加多一点,一般来说刀刃是有较好韧度的,而且可以看到古刀剑图案。那就是说他们有可能在这刀的再生产上使用古刀,但我不确定这种古技术是否尚存于世。但是我相信是肯定的只是限制在一少数金匠里。这样特别的技术在中国几乎失传。所以这刀还是有收藏价值。对于木柄,可能是老的但是用烂桌椅再生产的。这材料在中国极易找到。一些这种桌椅是超过300年的。但是你能看出把手的边缘是很锋利的。你想一把古刀埋了这么多年能有如此锋利的刀刃吗?另一方面,文字痕迹还能见。这不会在真物上出现的。

[ 本贴由 旺仔 于 2003-11-15 11:46 PM 最后编辑 ]

舞劍高歌...人生幾何!
2003-11-15 01:25
查看资料 搜索该用户的全部贴子 发短消息    编辑贴子 引用回复
<<  [1] [2]  >>
 

可打印版本 | 推荐给朋友 | 订阅主题 | 收藏主题


论坛跳转:





< 联系我们 - 拔刀斋 HFsword.com >


Powered by CDB 3.0 RC1 © 2002, Crossday Studio of 11cn.org